Cuts Like a Knife (But it Don't Feel so Right)
A couple of nights ago I caught an episode of one of the few TV shows I watch on a regular basis: Talk Sex, on the Oxygen network. For those who haven't heard of it before, it's a call-in show where people can call in and ask sex advice, whether it be medical, romantic or otherwise. The show is hosted by an elderly woman named Sue Johanson who is Canada's foremost sexual educator and counselor as well as a recipient of the distinguished Order of Canada. She is also a registered nurse.I enjoy the show for many reasons: [1] Since it's a call-in show, there's not a lot to keep up with visually, so that means I can tune in while I do other things around the house. [2] I learn all kinds of interesting things while at the same time having fun listening to the variety of calls received. And [3] I'm so lonely. Lol! No, but seriously, it's just a lot of fun.
So, to the case in point. I want to get your feedback on one of the topics that a caller called in with recently. I already know what I think about it, but I'm curious to hear what YOU think about it. First off, I'll admit that I didn't take the time this time to research (for once) the Jewish faith in detail, so I'm going into this topic with nothing but an opinion.
On to the phone call: A man called in and inquired about the possibilities of circumcision at the age of 35. His fiancee (she's Jewish, BTW) wants him to get circumcised. He very much didn't want to, but he "loves" her and this is what she wants. He neglected to say whether or not this was a condition of marriage, but I got the impression it was. In other words, whether or not he got married rested on whether or not he went through with the circumcision. I also got the distinct impression that this was much more an aesthetic issue (cut vs. uncut) of his fiancee's (she didn't "like it") more than a dedication to her religion.
Sue went on to make sure that this was a SERIOUS, lasting relationship, but seemed hesitant for him to have this procedure done because of the extreme pain involved and the fact that he was having the procedure done as an adult. He reluctantly, but consistently said he was going to do it "for her, (re: fiancee)" so Sue went on to explain to him how the procedure would work (cauterization, after-care, etc.) and what to expect.
So here's my question to both the men and the women who read my blog:
Men- Would you do this for a potential partner/fiancee?
Women- Would you ask a potential partner/fiancee to do this?
I'm anxious to hear your answers.
Now for my humble opinion, keeping in mind I didn't research all the details of the Jewish faith. I think this is nothing more than a selfish, vain, control issue. I'm of the opinion that a relationship is based on loving someone just the way they are. Whether this means religious affiliation, appearance, idosyncracies, etc. I find it a little hard to believe that something as insignificant as foreskin really plays that large a role in whether or not people of the Jewish faith can be successfully married. What? Does the rabbi do a full scrotal examination of the groom beforehand or what? Short of being a religious zealot, I honestly don't see the supposed validity of this meaningless ritual. I feel this is one of those outdated "rules" which is steeped more in mind stagnation rather than "tradition." i.e. Catholics vs. birth control. It all smacks of the ludicrous premise of that movie that was SUCH a big hit 3 years ago, My Big Fat Greek Wedding. Yeah, it may be precious when Hollywood portrays converting for the one you love, but it's a lot more complex than it's made out to look. Remind me to tell you about the time I pretended to like plays and musicals just to win the heart of the one I loved. Whatta nightmare. But I digress.
Epilogue: I couldn't stand it. I had to do a little research. Here's what I found online, according to Rabbi Shraga Simmons over at Aish.com:
A convert who is NOT circumcised needs the full surgery. This is not as complicated a procedure as you might expect. It is done with local anaesthetic and heals within a week or so. I have been present at adult circumcisions and it is a very positive experience for the new convert.
Yeah, tell that to an adult male who just had it done. I have a feeling it's one of those situations that people who haven't actually had the procedure (as an adult) can poo-poo and trivialize, even though they haven't had it done themselves. I still stand by my opinion.
posted by Kirkkitsch @ 6:00 AM
5 Comments:
I totally agree with both you, Kirk, and Tricia. If this is a matter of her personal preference, fine. Then she should feel free to go out and find her a man who fits in her idea of what a man should look like. But to tell someone "I love you just the way you are, and want to marry you - as long as you agree to change and turn into someone else," that's something that no self-respecting person should take. I don't blame her for this, I think this man has left his spinal cord at home. What kind of love is that? If it had been the other way around, and we were talking about a man asking this of a woman, whether it was something like a plastic surgery (nose job, breast implants, etc) of (horror) the female equivalent of a circumcision, I bet you anything in the world that he would be treated like the monster that this woman is. It's a sign of the times that it's OK if it's a woman who has this demand.
If her reasons are purely religious, then she's a strange sort of bigot: she doesn't mind going out with, and becoming engaged to, men of other persuasions, as long as they convert of her religion. Why can't she marry him just the way he is? My husband's Catholic and I'm not, and this has never never a problem to either of us. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that we actually love each other just the way we are and wouldn't change a thing, but I'll let others be the judge of that.
This is just bullshit. Would I prefer it? Certainly. If I really loved someone would I ask/expect him to go through this? Of course not. This is no different than people who supposedly "love" others and say that love is contingent on losing weight, changing their style of dress, etc. etc. etc. He should dump her and find someone who doesn't expect him to change. OR, perhaps fair is fair and he can request that she also get some surgery, say, breast implants or liposuction.
I am sorry but there is nothing, not a thing.. no reason or any person that I would cut a part of me off, hence I would in no way ask a man to do the same. A piece of flesh in no way represents what is truly in a person's heart.
So, is the man converting for his fiance? The suprising news is that MANY Jewish men and male children are not circumcised. There are alternative rituals for that.
We women scream and holler for the right to do with our bodies as we wish, so too should a man have that choice and NOT be requested to change it without valid medical reason.
Perhaps her concern is the children they have but they will be, by virtue of being born to a Jewish mother automatically be Jewish. So.. no. Absolutely not I would not ask someone to poke, pierce, and especially cut themselves in the name of love or religion.
All that said, more importantly I fall in love with a man for who he is. The whole man; and I take him at face value no matter his religion, his appearance, his form of income and certainly a piece of flesh becomes rather trivial if I do so wholey love him.
And I find it in very bad taste to ask a man to do something like that.
Sol
Religion forces people to do some STUPID shit. So I avoid it at all costs. ;-)
Dawn
webmiztris.diaryland.com
Tricia-
Testify, sistah gurl! I totally agree. Such a request IS totally ridiculous, not to mention selfish. Short of asking potential dates to drop em' and cough, she's on her own when it comes to picking one that IS circumcised.
Thanks for stoppin' by and commenting! :)
Gatochy-
I couldn't agree more. Like the saying goes: Take me as I am, not as you'd like me to be.
Cheeky-
I totally hear ya. Sure, I'd prefer it too, but if I truly loved someone I could accept it. Like I was telling Tricia, short of having them flash me before things 'get serious,' how the hell am I supposed to regulate something like this? Much less whom I fall in love with. Some people's expectations are just ludicrous.
It reminds me of a story one of my friends was telling me once about a friend of his who was house hunting. She'd go into these cute, quaint, older homes (like she claimed to love) and if they didn't have a color scheme she liked and/or their sense of decor bothered her in some way, she instantly wasn't interested. She simply had no vision.
My point is: Nothing's perfect. Especially people. Learn to accept it, and them, or move on.
Sol-
First off, yes the caller was converting for his fiancee. It was pretty much an prerequisite. He has a choice, but methinks the alternative to NOT having the procedure done was no wedding ring. If I'm correct in that assumption, then I'd say old out for someone who doesn't come to the table with ultimatums. Where does it end?
Thanks for droppin' and commenting! :)
Dawn-
Tell me about it! Remember I live in a red(neck) state. Trust me, I know what sheep people can be. The humongous multi-floored eyesore downt he street calling itself a Baptist church is a testiment to that.
smokeysmurf-
My point exactly. It's not like she went into the relationship not knowing how she felt abou the subject. Why use it as a bargaining chip as to whether or not you'll marry someone. Ridiculously selfish.
Thanks for stoppin' by and commenting! :)
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